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Dr. Elana interviews Eve Rodsky, author of the popular book Fair Play: A game-changing solution for when you have too much to do (and more life to live). Eve teaches us about the game she created to help couples be more efficient with getting the long list of to-dos done. This system ultimately prioritizes collaboration among parents by clarifying roles, responsibilities and expectations. It leads to increased efficiency and harmony in the home. Who doesn’t want that? If you are interested in rebalancing the domestic workload, listen to this episode and find out why you should pick up a copy of Fair Play!
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Eve Rodsky 0:03
The real problem was underlying all these issues was the fundamental finding that men, women and society view men’s time is finite like diamonds, and women’s time is infinite like sad.
Elana Roumell 0:17
Welcome back to Whole Mamas podcast. We’re here to give you tools, resources, and evidence-based information so that you can make the best decisions for yourself and your family. Whether you’re trying to conceive or navigating life with a toddler or a teenager, we’ve got you covered. I’m Dr. Elena Roumell, pediatric naturopathic doctor, and creator of Med School for Moms, an online resource where I teach moms how to safely be a doctor mom. My co-host is Stephanie Greunke, registered dietitian and program director for Whole Mamas club. She’s also the co-creator of Whole Mamas Pregnancy Program, where she teaches moms how to navigate the endless decisions around pregnancy.
Today, we welcome a guest, Eve Brodsky. She’s the author of the popular book Fair Play, game-changing solution for when you have too much to do and more life to live. Eve will teach us about the game she created to help couples be more efficient with getting the long list of to do’s done. This system ultimately prioritizes collaboration among parents by clarifying roles, responsibilities, and expectations. My favorite part about it is that it enhances efficiency and harmony in the home–and who doesn’t want that in their home?Now if you’re interested in rebalancing your domestic workload, this is the book to read and the episode to listen to.
Now before we bring on Eve, I’d like to take a moment to thank our partner Butcher Box. Steph and I are very picky when it comes to who we partner with. We want to share only the top-quality companies that we use ourselves because we ultimately love sharing resources with you. Butcher Box is our go-to for high-quality proteins. They deliver grass-fed and finished meats, pasture-raised chicken, heritage-breed pork, and now, wild sockeye salmon right to your doorstep. I was never personally much of a pork eater until I had Butcher Box’s pork and it is so good. I’m sure you’ve seen me cook with it if you follow my Instagram meal prep Mondays. I get a number of DMS from moms just asking about the quality of their meats and I just want to be crystal clear of what you can expect. All of the meat Butcher Box sends out has no antibiotics, no hormones, and they’re humanely raised. The beef is 100% grass-fed and finished, certified pasture raised. Their pork is heritage breed pork raised with traditional sustainable farming methods. Their chicken is free-range, USDA certified organic, and their salmon is sustainably harvest and wild-caught Alaskan sockeye. Now if you’re new to Butcher Box, you’ll see you can choose between two different boxes: a curated box that Butcher Box team hand selects or a custom box which is so neat–that’s what I love to do! And I love to custom make my own box with so many different varieties. A few things to knows that free shipping is always available. Once you’re a member, you get to choose the frequency of delivery–two, four, six, or eight weeks, or you simply log into your account and move the dates around. It is a subscription service, but you can cancel, pause, or modify anytime–no penalties. And once you’re a member, you can get additional items in your box with great member deals like $60 for six pounds of salmon, or ground beef for life for one payment of $2999. Butcher Box is offering our listeners a great deal for new customers only you can get two grass-fed filet mignon steaks, plus two pounds of wild-caught Alaskan salmon for $20 off! Visit butcherbox.com/wholemamas to get this great deal. Offer ends February 16, so don’t miss out. All right, time to invite our guest Eve to the show. And as normal, we’re going to go ahead and start with our Nourish Yourself segment.
All right, Eve, so nice to have you on today’s show! As you know, we’d like to start with our Nourish Yourself segment. What did you do today to nourish yourself?
Eve Rodsky 3:51
I ran two miles, which I haven’t done since I’ve been on the road for five months–and so I was very proud of myself.
Elana Roumell 3:59
Great. Good job! And you live in New York–is that right? You’ve got an accent.
Eve Rodsky 4:02
I’m from New York. I grew up in the Lower East Side and Avenue Three and 14th street of New York City, but I live in LA now.
Elana Roumell 4:10
Oh, my goodness! Across the country! So you’re close to me; I’m here in San Diego.
Eve Rodsky 4:13
Elana Roumell 4:13
Oh, that’s so fun. Well, I’m glad you got the sunny weather. That’s what I was trying to pick out–where you were running. So that’s great that you got outside to do that
Eve Rodsky 4:20
So great to be outside!
Elana Roumell 4:21
I know! We are so lucky.
Eve Rodsky 4:23
I have messed feet from dance when I was a kid, but I’m still trying to work through a bone spur and a broken metatarsal and all those things you need to do to run. But it felt good.
Elana Roumell 4:33
Oh, my goodness, look at you powering through! Well, good job–as long as it nourished you and you felt good.
Eve Rodsky 4:37
It was good.
Elana Roumell 4:39
Good. Well, I would love to share, actually, my nourishing practice was actually that I read your book, Eve.
Eve Rodsky 4:45
Oh, thank you!
Elana Roumell 4:46
So, I’m telling you, a few things: I get a lot of books in the mail. You know, we interview a lot of authors, but you know, I have a three-month old This is my second child and I do not have the energy, or the you know, like, the attention span to read a book. And when I got your book, I literally read it cover to cover and it nourished me so much that I couldn’t put it down. My husband’s like, “What are you reading?”
Eve Rodsky 5:07
Elana Roumell 5:07
And I’m like, “Oh, we’re going to talk about this after I’m done with this book, right? We’re gonna go into this.” And it was just such a great practice. I mean, I do love reading books. I’ve been reading, well I’ve been doing more audibles while I take walks. But having a hardcover book is such a treat, so I just want to thank you for that.
Eve Rodsky 5:22
Well, thank YOU.
Elana Roumell 5:23
It’s been a real nourishing to me. And I just love your approach to having a household run more efficiently. So I’m so excited for all these questions! We’re going to dive in. But that was definitely a fun nourishing practice for me for the last few weeks, so thank you for that.
Eve Rodsky 5:38
Good, great. Well, I appreciate that!
Elana Roumell 5:40
You got it. So, a lot of listeners may not know who you are. I just find you to be fascinating because you are actually a Harvard law school graduate.
So, you are a lawyer, but you became an expert on balancing domestic workload and decided to write this book, which is no easy feat. So tell us a little bit about how you even jumped from careers like tha, and how you got so interested in this.
Eve Rodsky 5:48
Oh, thank you for that, Elena. I like to say that this was a book I was born to write because I just said to you, that I grew up in the Lower East Side of Manhattan to a single mom. And at seven years old, eight years old, you know, I got to notice the difference between late utility bills, final notice shut offs, regular utility bills, eviction notices, and it was super chaotic. So from seven years old, I vowed I was going to have an equal partner in my life when I had kids, and I married that equal partner, and we were killing it–and life–and business. I marked up his contracts.
Like you said, I’m a lawyer by trade. As he was growing his business, he interviewed me for my dream job in philanthropy. We took turns doing the dishes; we took turns ordering in when we lived in a small apartment in New York City. And that’s until two kids later–two kids later! You know, you cut to “two kids later,” and this entire seven year questof fair play started with a text my husband sent me that you’ve seen in the book, and the text just said, “I’m surprised you didn’t get blueberries.” But you didn’t picture the scene because it was about the age you are right now with your second child. I had a newborn baby at home–my son, my second son, Ben. Now we have three kids, but back then we had two. I had a diaper bag, and a breast pump in my passenger seat of my car. When I got the text I had gifts for, you know, it was so nice people gave us gifts for the baby, but I had to return a lot of them.
So, I’m just here in the backseat of my car. I had a client contract on my lap, where I was marking up this contract with a pen that was sort of stabbing me in the vagina every time I would brake. I was racing to get my three-year-old to his Toddler Transition Program, which last in America because we value working parents for like, five minutes. And so you know, even though I’d been committing crimes, like texting and driving, this was too much–the crime was over the top, so I just pulled over…and that was a very seminal day for me because I was crying, on the side of the road, basically thinking to myself, “Wow, you know, I used to be able to manage employee teams and now I’m not even–I’m so overwhelmed–I’m not even managing a grocery list, and–
And more importantly, how did I become the default or, as I call in Fair Play, the “she fault” for literally every single household and childcare task, including obviously–apparently–being the fulfiller of my husband’s smoothie needs, you know, in addition to everything else. So that was a day I said, “This is not the way I envisioned my life and something has to change,” and that’s when I embarked on a seven-year quest to change it.
Elana Roumell 8:34
I love it–I have the chills! And of course I read this story, but even hearing it from you is even more profound because I know what that feels like, right? Because I am that mom of two, and I do really feel like so many of the household tasks is just defaulted on to myself. I love how you use that word “she-fault.” I think it’s just brilliant. And I think a lot of moms who are listening can really, really relate to this. And, what I really love about your book is that you offer solutions, and we’re going to get into what the game of Fair Play is. But I will have to say–and I want to almost, almost warn some of the moms who may be interested in either listening or reading your book–is it kind of got me riled up! I got mad.
Eve Rodsky 9:13
Yeah, and you should have.
Elana Roumell 9:14
The points in it that I was like, no, I wasn’t even aware of all this stuff. And I’ve been doing it because I do really like doing a lot of household tasks. But then when you started really breaking it down to this and that, and then you got this text about, “I’m surprised you forgot the blueberries.” And like, I’ve got a text like this, and I just want to be like, “Eff you, man! You know, look at what I’ve done.”
Eve Rodsky 9:35
Yeah, yeah, it should be like that.
Elana Roumell 9:37
It got me really riled up.
Eve Rodsky 9:38
It should have. A professor–any professor–will tell you it’s social change. Right? I had this great professor. I said, “Distill social change in one, one sentence for me if you can.” And he said, “It’s pre-consciousness to consciousness, to fighting for solutions, right?” So when you’re stuck just in consciousness like you were, you know, it’s hard. But if you know that there’s a rainbow, there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, which is that there is a solution! There is a solution: Taking agency in your own home can happen to you today. And I will give you that path, then it doesn’t feel so bad. But I will say that when I didn’t have the solution before I had developed it, reading 100 years of literature on this issue was very, very depressing.
Elana Roumell 10:20
Yeah, no, I bet! I can understand but I love that you still created the solution. So before we get into the game, I still want to talk a little bit about how you illustrate the amount of workload that a woman takes on. You categorize it into different categories; you call it mental load, second shift, emotional labor, and invisible work.
Eve Rodsky 10:42
Elana Roumell 10:42
And I never–I never categorized it like that. I realized like, oh, my goodness! There’s so much! So can you kind of share with our listeners what those kinds of categories mean?
Eve Rodsky 10:52
Yes, well, my favorite is invisible work. And I’ll tell you why. Because there was a modicum of a solution in there, Elana, there was modicum of solution. All these terms–mental load, emotional labor–they’re all interchangeable, but invisible work is the best. Because ultimately everything we do in domestic life takes time. And when you only have 24 hours in a day, anything you do in domestic life that takes time, it’s taking away from other opportunity costs of how you would spend your time.
So, what I started to do was, when I got that blueberry text, I had this day, this breast cancer march day, where I was with a stroke and trauma doctor, I was with an award-winning TV producer, I’m there. I’m with another friend who’s a nonprofit executive, and we’re at this breast cancer march, right at about the similar time after I got the blueberries text. And we’re marching for courage, strength, and power, and not just a female problem, feeling super empowered this morning. And then I get the first text. The first text comes in around noon. Well, wasn’t to me; it was to my friend. And it was from her husband, who was already done for the day at noon. The text is said, “When are you coming home from the parade?” Everything happens in text, until I tell you in Fair Play, that you can’t communicate by text anymore. But once that text came in– “When you coming home from the parade?”–literally, every single one of our phones blew up. And I don’t know if I would have noticed if I hadn’t had the blueberry text. I would have probably stayed in pre-consciousness.
But what I noticed was that we all started getting texts, like, “Where’s the kids’ soccer bag?” and “Where, what’s the address to the birthday party?” And my favorite text of all was my friend’s husband, who sent her a text and said, “When do the kids need to eat lunch?”
Elana Roumell 12:35
Eve Rodsky 12:35
I just started thinking about, you know–and then my friend Katie said this thing that we were all thinking, which is “Maybe we did leave our partners with too much to do, and we should just go home and skip our lunch together.” And we did. We went home to retrieve the soccer bag, to find the address of the birthday party, to feed our kids lunch. And I remember I had an act of resistance that day. It was to count up every single email and text we had received, and we had thirty phone calls and forty-six texts for thirty women–in 10 minutes! Can’t make that up!
Elana Roumell 13:06
Yeah, oh, my gosh.
Eve Rodsky 13:06
So, that was the beginning of understanding time. And so what I did after that day was once I read that article from 1987 titled “Invisible Work,” I started to call those women that I marched with, and other women. And I asked them, “What do you do that takes more than three minutes of quantifiable time? Work, that you do for your family, that’s invisible or goes unnoticed?” And you can imagine, right, that I started writing my own down like you know, attending our kids’–my kids’–dental appointment: one hour. You know, making school lunches: 10 minutes. You know, logging into a school forum portal: I don’t know–like my entire lifetime for that. But then other friends started weighing in things like, “Don’t forget ‘Elf on the Shelf’: one hour times twenty! You know, nice. Girl Scout cookies, ordering and sales: five hours. Sunscreen, you know, two minutes to apply, but 30 minutes for the chase. It was just, it was this crazy, amazing exercise that took me nine months, almost a year, of getting aggregated data. And from women, who I didn’t even know, started to contribute to a 98-tab Excel spreadsheet that I started calling “The **** I do.”
But, what I realized at the time, was that when I sent it off to Seth–you know, the 10 million megabyte spreadsheet–I sent it off to him after nine months of working on it in the middle of his work day, and I get just the sad little monkey that’s covering its eyes in response. Right, I didn’t even get the courtesy of the three monkey trio! Basically, it was a “see no evil.” All right, in that moment, I was thinking to myself, “Lists alone don’t work.” And, not even that, but when you get to consciousness with no solution…so, this spreadsheet I had started actually caused ****storms in other households. I had a woman call me–you really can’t make this stuff up!–she calls me from the, she’s leaving me a message saying, “I got your spreadsheet from the Jewish Federation of Arizona Mom’s Group (or something like that). And I just want to let you know that after seeing your spreadsheet, I’m not staying in my marriage.”
Elana Roumell 15:03
Oh, my goodness!
Eve Rodsky 15:04
And so, you realize that consciousness raising is important, right? But if you stop there, it actually can be a “do no harm.” And so the next phase of my work was either resigning myself and doing it all, right? Saying these lists don’t work–or I can become my own client. And my day job is that I am a mediator; I work with highly complex families. And I decided to put on my mediation hat–my systems hat–and start to develop a solution, based on the decade of experience I had, working with families that look like the HBO show “Succession.”
Elana Roumell 15:38
Okay, before we go into solution, though, I want to keep on talking a little bit about this phenomenon because clearly, it’s happening across the world. And you’ve taken so many years to gather so much data. I have to agree with you in that when you look at the list–this is why my experience was one of anger! And almost like resentment, like, oh my god, I can’t believe I’m doing all of this! That’s why I wanted to kind of warn the listeners that they may feel that way too. And there is a solution, which is great, but I really, really want to go into this concept that you brought up in this book. One of your rules that you call is that all time is created equal.
Eve Rodsky 16:14
Elana Roumell 16:15
Because you talked about how this invisible work is taking so much of our time. And that it’s just not fair. Why, why are we taking this time and the husband’s not taking the time? So, I really would like to break this down. I want you to talk about it. Because I think so many of us kind of say, “Well, if my husband’s working more hours than I am, well, then it makes sense for me to do all these household duties.” So, we overcome this thinking, right? Because you made a really great point in your book and I wanted you to share that.
Eve Rodsky 16:41
Okay. Well, I thank you for allowing me to talk a little bit about the first half of the book, right, which is not the solution, but it’s really the consciousness raising. So, what happened was that after this big spreadsheet was failing. and I wanted to develop a system and the solution. I went out into the world, and I interviewed five hundred men and women that mirror the US Census. That’s why this took me seven years. But it’s very important to have that data. And what I found was–and this is crazy, right–but the way that this issue was manifesting itself was that the smallest details were causing the biggest problems, right? So, people like me are crying over offseason blueberries. I had a man in White Plains, New York, telling me he was locked out of his house over a glue stick. And you can imagine his wife’s perspective. She had been working three weeks in the homework project, and she had Xeroxed all the pages for her kid. and they were in the library three times–and she just needed a glue stick to get those pictures, Xeroxes, on the poster board, right? But for him, he had no context for that request. And he’s telling me “I’m, you know, driving around White Plains deciding whether or not I go into New York City or, you know, do I get to come home?”
Right, so, a lot of this stuff is manifesting as small details creating the big problems BUT as mediators we often say the presenting problem is not the real problem. And the real problem was underlying all these issues was the fundamental finding that men, women, and society view men’s time is finite, like diamonds. And women’s time is infinite, like sand. It is underlying every single thing that we do as a culture. And I’ll explain what I mean. We know that society and men don’t value women’s time because we’re not even paid the same for the same hour in the workplace: 80 cents on the dollar if you’re white woman, and closer to 60 cents of the dollar if you’re a woman of color. But, what was crazy to me, Elana, was that women are the worst gaurders of men’s time. So, what I mean by that was that I had women all over this country saying things to me like, “Well, my husband makes more money than me, soo of course, I should pick up the kids from school; pick up the blueberries; you know, get whatever it was, right. And that’s a terrible losing argument, because we’re always gonna make less money because we don’t even get paid the same for the same job. So, I had other women saying to me, “Well, we’re just wired differently, you know, I’m just wired differently than my partner, than my husband. Women are better multitaskers, right?” So I had to go to the top neuroscientists in the world, and have them break down that there’s no difference. There’s no difference in our brains and how we’re wired for domestic tasks. Men are just as great or bad multitaskers as women, and they have just as good executive function as we do. And my favorite quote of all my interviews, and all the seven years, was a crotchety old, white male neuroscientist. He looked me in the eyes, when I asked him, “Are women wired differently for domestic labor, or childcare? He looked at me and he said, “Imagine, Eve, if we could convince half the population that they’re better at wiping asses and doing dishes, how great for the other half the population.”
Elana Roumell 19:52
Eve Rodsky 19:53
So that was a mic drop for me. It changed my life–literally changed–
Elana Roumell 19:56
Mmm, hmm, yeah.
Eve Rodsky 19:57
–In that moment. I had other women saying to me things like, “In the time it takes me to tell my husband what to do, I might as well do it myself.” I went to the top behavioral economists in the world–it’s a terrible losing argument–because of course, you want to show somebody how to wipe the ass and do the dishes. Otherwise, you’re doing it forever. And then finally, women and men who are in the same job: I purposely sought out women and men who have the same job, the same earning capacity, to shipping supervisors, to colorectal surgeons, and still, still, the woman was saying to me, in these heterosexual relationships, “I do more. But that’s because you know, my husband gets super overwhelmed–and I can find the time.” So again, unless we’re like, Albert Einstein, we can pull the space time continuum, there’s actually no way to find time. There’s just a different expectation over how women are expected to use their time. And that absolutely has to change before we even we get into any solution. We have to reframe what I call these toxic time messages we give ourselves– women give ourselves–and recognize that we both only have 24 hours in a day. Our partner and we–we only both have 24 hours in a day. And until we realize that all of our time is created equal, because we each have a limited resource of it, if we don’t recognize that then nothing’s going to change.
Elana Roumell 21:13
Well, I love it. And I said how much I enjoyed your book. Not only did I read it cover to cover, but I highlighted a lot of parts.
Eve Rodsky 21:19
Elana Roumell 21:20
Which is so funny because this is so not what usually you do with a newborn! But that is what I was doing. It’s actually not very good–my toddler also drew all over it too–but that’s okay. But one of the parts that I highlighted was exactly this quote was there’s no research data that shows women are better multitaskers than men. In fact, multitasking is bad for everyone, because our brains are not built to deal with more than one complex thing at a time. And when I read that, I was kind of baffled by it! I had to stop and say, “Is that really true? I even questioned it, because I was like, “I’m pretty sure I can multitask better than my husband,” and then I thought really hard about it. I said, “But, you know, why it does wear on me? It does add to my mental load. And why am I the one being burdened by the multitasking when he gets to just be single focused on one thing at a time?”
Eve Rodsky 22:12
Elana Roumell 22:12
And that really helped me realize that we are so culturally wired to think that, but it really does take a lot for a woman. And so, I was just so excited to read this, to get obviously I wanted to get to the solution–which is going to be now my next question. We’re going to start getting there, but I just loved the data that you are able to collect, not only from some of the scientists like neurologists and economists and such, but but also from just day-to-day late people. I mean, you’ve gathered hundreds, if not thousands, of different people in all different aspects. Some of my favorite stories and examples in your book were the couples who had the exact identical job. They both owned the same company; their their day-to-day schedules–you even lined it up for us–it was from 10:00 to 11:00, they do this. From 1:00 to 12:00, they do this. And the man has this schedule, the woman has a schedule–except for every little break, the woman’s doing some household task, whether it’s calling the school or you know, ordering groceries on Amazon because she’s not home, or like every little break, she’s still doing something. Whereas, the husband has the exact same work schedule, yet he doesn’t have that.
And I was just like, this is not okay!
Eve Rodsky 22:32
Elana Roumell 23:20
So, this is just great. So let’s go ahead into–
Eve Rodsky 23:22
One more thing, one more thing–
Elana Roumell 23:24
Yeah! Of course!
Eve Rodsky 23:25
–Is that the, it’s very important to understand that this is a gender division of labor, right. This is an issue that falls on women. Oxfam just came out–I was at Davos, I got to be at Davos talking to world leaders about this issue–Oxfam just came out with their statistic that $10.8 trillion a year of unpaid work is done by women. But that doesn’t mean this solution doesn’t work for same sex couples, for different situations. For people who are military spouses who have, you know, special circumstances. It does work. It does work for everyone, and I’m going to be coming out with more content that shows that, but I want to make very good clear about why this is written as a gender division of labor issue because this is an issue that falls on women.
Dr. Yolanda 24:07
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Elana Roumell 25:17
Okay, so my next question, or I think, moving into more of the solution, before we go into the actual game, I really want to highlight this idea of how you present a home: it runs just like a business or an organization can run, right?
Eve Rodsky 25:32
Well, I love how you just distill that–you need to come on the road with me!
Elana Roumell 26:07
Eve Rodsky 26:07
But I think factor in law, right, you are a business. And I think, imagine someone who works for you comes to you today, right? And he says, “Hey, what should I be doing today? I’ll just wait here to tell me what to do.” Right? I mean, they probably wouldn’t be working for you tomorrow. And I think that’s sort of how our households work, which makes no sense. It’s not 21st century; it’s completely inefficient. And I think you said it: If anybody takes away one point–besides the wiping asses and doing dishes is a cultural expectationn, not a brain thing–is that we don’t treat our home like our most important organization. We don’t treat our home with any respect or any rigor. Even my aunt Marion’s mahjong group has more clearly defined limitations in the home. I asked her about it and she said, “Well, yeah, we have rules. If you don’t bring snack twice in a row and you’re snack day, you’re out!” So why is it that Marion’s mahjong group has more clearly defined expectations than our home? It doesn’t make any sense–especially in the 21st century, when we have so much data, so much data about organizational science, so much data about managing our workplace.
Okay, this makes me so excited because I’m–all my friends know this to me–I’m so about efficiency. And, just actually only a few months back–and our listeners know this because it was one of the things I shared on our Nourish Yourself segment–I shared that my husband and I started doing these weekly check in meetings, which is interesting because you brought this up in your book. And that has transformed our relationship, but there was still a missing piece. And that’s why this card game is now going to be the new addition, but, just to back up a little bit with the weekly check ins: One of the reasons why I brought this up to my husband Anthony is, I said, “You know, we both are entrepreneurs, and we’re both running our own businesses. Why are we not meeting to go over the agenda for the week?–”
Elana Roumell 29:26
“–Why aren’t we meeting to make sure that these tasks are being fulfilled? Because how do I know that you did it? Or I did it and then we’re like, doubling up on things?”–
Eve Rodsky 29:34
You are coming on the road with me! That IS Fair Play, yes!
Elana Roumell 29:35
–“How is it that I’m meeting with all of my other teammates, but I’m not meeting with my number one team member–”
You have no idea how excited this book made me!
Eve Rodsky 29:43
That is it! You got it! It’s not rocket science.
Elana Roumell 29:51
It’s not rocket science. And those, really, those meetings helped so much, but I will tell you what was missing for us, is that CPE that that taking the ownership that conception, the planning the execution, I still felt like we’re not doing that. So we’re going to move into that. I want to explain that a little bit more to the listeners. But before I do that, I do want to mention that even if you wanted to start with these weekly check ins that you do mention in your book. This truly has changed our dynamic because we also start with our acknowledgments for the week, like, “Hey, what did you do that I just want to acknowledge you about. I really appreciate that.” And then we move to feedback like, “Hey, man, this did not work for me. And this is why.” And it’s great because usually I would be so emotional about it. And I would just like text him in the middle of work and be like, “How did you leave this on the floor? I just…”
Eve Rodsky 30:40
Elana Roumell 30:41
“…I would always slip on it or something.” Whereas, at the end of the week, I could be like, “Hey, buddy, you left this on the floor on Tuesday. I could have slipped on it. Can you try to be mindful? That’s great.” Okay…
Eve Rodsky 30:50
Oh, yeah, yeah. That’s great for the documentary we’re doing, the nonfiction report.
Elana Roumell 30:55
Yes, really, it is such a game changer! And in the third part of our three-part meeting was, “Let’s go through our to do list…what are you doing? What am I doing?” We have a shared note we use on our iPhone so that we can see. And it really helped Anthony see how much I was doing compared to what he was doing–which then, when it was like a task that either of us can do, he’d be like, “All right, I’ll take that. Because clearly, you’ve got all of this going on.” And we’re both you know, I value your time.”
But what I didn’t like was I still kind of felt like I was reminding him about some stuff, or I was like, “Hey, did you check the note?” And in your book, you really nailed it to say, like, as a wife, we’re not parenting our husbands. It’s my duty to train them–”
“…or to remind them. We’re already doing that for our three-year-olds, and our five-year-olds, and our seven-year-olds, like, that’s a lot in and of itself. These men–and us women— deserve the, I don’t know, the right to take ownership over a task. And so, why are we not having our men do this more, and so I just thought this was such a game changer. And that, number one, I’m going to continue my weekly check ins. But…”
Eve Rodsky 31:41
Elana Roumell 31:43
“…instead of just doing the to do list, I want to make it a game and make it fun. And so, I just thought this was so brilliant. But one of the things that you mentioned in the book that I want to bring up, because I think a lot of women do this–I know I do this, I’m sure you’ve done this now because you’ve labeled it–but you talk about things called RAT. So, random assignment of a task. And I just I was like, “Oh my god, I do this all the time.”
Eve Rodsky 32:28
Haha, yeah, yeah…
Elana Roumell 32:28
So I really want to break it down, and then if you could please, correct me if I’m wrong with this. But, essentially, what happens is, oftentimes the woman will conceive the plan and then we will plan the plan. And then when it comes to the execution of it, we say to our husbands, “Oh, can you just quickly do that? That’d be great.” But somewhere they either don’t hear us correctly. There’s miscommunication. It’s just like random, right? You call it a random assign tasks, andthen this bomb goes off–because all of a sudden, the husband thinks they’re helping you–but he doesn’t fulfill on your expectation. You’ve conceived and planned it. And now you’re resenting him because he didn’t do it. And he’s confused, and he thinks you’re crazy. And all of this, honestly, just build so much of your mental and emotional weight.
I just find this to be such an important topic and concept for us women to get because I think we’re doing this so much unconsciously. That if we can really just get rid of trying to divide all these tasks, and really just clearly see what are all the tasks that need to be done in the household, you–and then delegate who gets which task. And then like you said in the book, you can re-deal. It’s not like you have to take out the trash for the next 50 years, right?
Eve Rodsky 33:40
Elana Roumell 33:41
You know, you don’t have to do that. But if this week, that’s your task, then that’s going to be you’re going to be, yes! You’re gonna own it, and I just find it to be very empowering. I’m super excited about it.
Eve Rodsky 33:52
Right? Can I just say how great that was? Because what you’re saying is, I mean, it means you read the book, and that it…”
Elana Roumell 33:58
Eve Rodsky 33:58
“…the concepts are again, not, you know, they’re not rocket science! You’re able to articulate them in such a beautiful way. Back, remember that glue stick? I just needed a glue stick. That’s a random assignment of a task, right? That’s what I call the RAT in the book. It’s the opposite of Fair Play, which is when you own something. You own it with full conception and planning and execution. And just to belabor the point: It was so important to me to go out there and interview women. Because what I saw was, regardless of socioeconomic status, regardless of ethnicity–like you said, Elana–what was happening was think about mustard, right? Somebody has to know that your second son Johnny likes French’s yellow mustard with his protein otherwise he chokes, right? He won’t eat the protein. That’s conception. Then someone’s writing that on a grocery list with everything else that you need for the week when the mustard runs low. Someone has to monitor that and the refrigerator: “Oh, French’s yellow mustard running low; put it on the list.” That’s the planning, organizational management’s phase of planning. Then someone gets their butt to the store to buy that French’s yellow mustard. Now, hands down, that’s where men were stepping in with the execution phase, the buying of the mustard, the heading to the store. And the problem with that, right, the main problem with that is that they’re bringing home–men are bringing home–a spicy Dijon, the grosskind with the seeds, not French’s yellow.
And then–this is why Fair Play became my love letter to men–because then men all over the country were saying things to me, like, “I would do more in the home, but I can’t get anything right.” It doesn’t feel good, to be criticized, to be nagged, to be wrong. And I understand that this is where you want to feel safe. But then women were saying to me all over this country, things like, “Eve, you want me to trust him with this estate planning card, my living will? The dude can’t even bring home the right type of mustard!” So, what it became was back to what I said to you before, the presenting problem is not the real problem. It’s not about offseason blueberries. This is not about mustard. This is ultimately about trust. And what happens when the trust breaks down and our relationship is that 30% of us are divorcing over the unfairness of the division of labor in the home. And that is just not acceptable. It is not acceptable because there is a better way. Like you said, when you keep the conception, planning, and execution together, when you hold the full grocery card for the week, and you have full context for why you’re bringing home those groceries for taco night on Tuesday night, and the big party–the wings–for your Super Bowl party on Sunday… When you have that check in to be able to have that context for the week, everything changes.
Elana Roumell 36:32
Yeah, and it’s more efficient at the end of the day, because you’ll get that French’s mustard. You know, that’s what you’re going to get at the end. And I think it’s very emasculating to men because they really are smart people, but then they feel kind of idiotic when they do bring home the wrong mustard because it just wasn’t well planned. And that’s really where the crux is. And you’re so right about this that the big problems are really all the little problems built up. Or, rather, not the problems; it’s all these little things, all these little details that get built up. And people don’t get divorced over the mustard; they get divorced over all those years and years of not communicating well and not being efficient in the household for these 30% of people. And I just find that to be so sad. And I’m such a proactive type of person in general–that’s why I hopped on this–because I want to make sure that we’re not doing this in 10 years, or 20 years, or 30 years. I mean, I want a really fruitful type of relationship, and one that feels fair. And that’s another thing about the title of your book, and I keep on reminding my husband this: It’s called Fair Play. It’s not called equal play.
Eve Rodsky 37:41
Elana Roumell 37:42
And I said to him, I’m like, “we’re gonna play this…” or–I didn’t say we’re “going to,” I said, “What I think about this, let me tell you about the card game. And I said to him, “You know, it’s not about you take 50 cards, and I take 50 cards. It’s about I may have 70 cards and you may have 30, as long as we feel that it’s fair for the period of time that we are in our partnership, that’s it.
Eve Rodsky 38:01
Elana Roumell 38:02
He was oh, so relieved about that!
Eve Rodsky 38:03
One card changed my life! I mean, I think that’s what it comes down to. One card changed my life. Because it started for us with extracurricular sports, something that we already valued because we knew we had value behind it for our sons. We said, “Oh, keep them off screens. We think it’s important to be part of a team. We like the idea of having friends outside of school that you can meet.” We had the value system set up to both value extracurricular sports. So once Seth understood conception, planning, execution, he literally really thought–and this is not, again, a blame to him or me or anybody–but the system breakdown. He thought he was holding the extracurricular sports card, handling extracurricular sports, when he would show up for the little league field on Saturday to take my kids. And, when I finally was able to sit down with him–and emotion was low and cognition was high–in a time when we had tacos and tequila…preferably with alcohol or walk or whatever nourishes you, like you said. And I was able to say to Seth, “Well, actually, if you want to own extracurricular sports, here’s what this means. It means serving Zach and Ben’s friends for what sports they want to play. It means here’s the login for the AYSO– whatever, little league portal–here’s the five forms you have to print out for consent forms. We have to find a printer because we never printed from house at the time. Here’s the Venmo for the coach’s gift would be like; here’s where you order the equipment, or–you know you can figure out where to get your equipment you want–but know that if the size comes wrong. I got it from Amazon, so that here’s how you return the equipment. Right, add all these up. Here’s…this is what I’ve been doing, arranging carpool practice. And what I realized was just Seth taking over ownership for extracurricular sports, the full CPE for that one card, six hours a week of my life back.
Elana Roumell 38:05
Eve Rodsky 38:07
One card! One card…
Elana Roumell 39:52
Wow, I just love this! And you know, the good thing is, I think in the book when I read, he actually really then enjoyed it.
Eve Rodsky 39:59
He did, he did…
Elana Roumell 40:00
You did it, you know, you can still attend the games. It’s not like you can’t be a part of it. But how nicely you don’t have to organize all of that in the background, all the visible work, right?
Eve Rodsky 40:10
Exactly! And nobody’s expecting me to bring the water bottle. No one,
Elana Roumell 40:14
Right. That’s fantastic!
Eve Rodsky 40:15
He does this! I get a card called Showing Up and Participating, which means I just get to show up, give my kids kisses, give them emotional support when they’re playing. But no one is handing me a backpack of stuff because they know this is Dad’s.
Elana Roumell 40:28
Yeah. I love it. And it makes you more available for your other cards. And so, you know, I just want to take a second because I hope that we’re not jumping too fast. I want to, if I may, explain to the listeners if they’re not aware of this. I’m sorry, you guys, if we went too fast, I got so excited! I want to give you an overview of what this game actually is, and what Eve really created. She essentially took the time to come up with what are all the tasks that are needed for a whole household to run. And she came up with, I think it was, 60 of them have to do with just running a household without even kids involved.
Eve Rodsky 41:03
Elana Roumell 41:03
And then there was another 30 that have kids involved. And then I believe 10 have to do with some of the unicorn space, which I really want to get into before we run out of time. So we’re going to talk to you about that. But essentially, you can see how many tasks there are. And these cards have the name of the task. And then when you spread out all these cards on the table, there’s different steps that you take to follow the game. And the first one just briefly is that maybe you don’t have a pet. So if you don’t have a pet, you can obviously discard that card, because there’s no task having to do with a pet. But if your family has a pet, then you keep that card on the table. So you first, obviously, have to go through the cards, because you probably are not going to have all 100 and, hopefully, you actually have a lot less because then it’s just an easier game to play.
And then you essentially delegate those cards based on what you want to do. And then you get the cards where no one wants to do anything, but they’re the daily grind that you have to do and someone’s got to do them. And there’s a lot of different steps that she explains in the book of how to go about that. So I hope that that was well explained.
Eve Rodsky 42:01
Yes, so good!
Elana Roumell 42:01
So people understand what this car game is. And then every week, you get to re-deal them, you get to give your partner feedback like, “Hey, you know, did you mess up?” You know, because we’re going to mess up in the beginning–I even said to my husband that, “Look, for part of the first few months, we’re going to fail at this game. We just have to be okay with that for a year, the first year. And as long as we’re cool with it, and don’t worry about it. The check ins will just clear it up, and then we’ll figure it out.
Eve Rodsky 42:02
But I will say it’s important because a lot of women say to me, “Well, what if I hand over card and it doesn’t get done?”
Elana Roumell 42:31
Eve Rodsky 42:32
So, I think that if you make this card game another list, it’s gonna fail. If you understand that a system is a new way, it’s a practice. If I said to you, Elana, like you said, “What nourishes yourself?” And I said, “I ran today,” and I said, “That’s good for the rest of my life, right?” It doesn’t work like that, unfortunately. Anything good is a practice, whether it’s the meditation practice, or constant exercise, or even practicing a speech before a big event, right ,or all the hours you need to become a great athlete, you have to practice. And so this is a practice where–like you said–you were investing 20 minutes in your marriage. And for any of your listeners out there who don’t think they have that time, you need to grab their screen time, grab your screen time app right now, and look at how many hours you’ve been on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, whatever.
You have 20 minutes a week to invest in your marriage. And what happens about, you treat it like a list, It works like a list. You treat it like a system, and you invest in it, it works. But don’t skip the value step because what I realized when I first started the game, and I gave Seth garbage, and he knew what that meant from conception and planning to execution to get the bins out, put the liner back in…me, Eve, couldn’t stop stalking him over garbage. I like to say I was his garbage shadow. I would look in the bins to see if was was taken out. He’s tall, so I would open the door underneath the sink and hope he would fall over it. Because I was “Oh, there’s the garbage liners!” And he was recognizing that I couldn’t let go. And that’s when I realized that for 10 years I’ve been working on basically systems organization for highly complex family foundations that look like the HBO show Succession. But the part I was missing–organizational management CPE we got–but if you miss the values based mediation part, the what is your why, why we do things, the new vow over garbage, then the system is not a system, it’s just the list.
So what you do first is you’re going to take a new vow over garbage. You’re going to take a new vow of additions; you’re going to sit down with each card and discuss your minimum standard of care–your why–and it changes the game. So when I finally sat down with Seth, over some alcohol and tequila and tacos, and I was able to say to him, “Thank you for owning garbage. I’m sorry–I’m a garbage stalker. But why? The reason why I’ve been stalking you over garbage is–you don’t know this about me–but you know how, you know, my mother is sort of a mess. You know that she lives her keys everywhere. You know the way I grew up, you knows, it was with a single mom–you know her–my single mom, you knew, you saw my apartment growing up…We never noticed was that I, growing up, I didn’t have a garbage can. My mother just didn’t invest in a garbage can. We had just a takeout bag on a knob in our kitchen. And garbage would fall out on the floor–all over the floor. And–and Avenue C and 14th Street in the 80s, it was not clean. And so we’d get cockroaches and water bugs all over. You couldn’t open the light after dark. It would just be everywhere then scatter. And I said to Seth, “I can’t live like that. I can’t be eight years old, seven years old again. Like it brings back the little girl in me where I have no control over my life, where I’m alone, where I’m left by myself all the time. I don’t want to live like that again.” And so I think being able to open up and be vulnerable over garbage. And then Seth for him to say, “Look, I grew up in a privileged house. We had a housekeeper; I slept on pizza boxes in my fraternity. I don’t really see garbage, that–I don’t even see it. It doesn’t bother me.” So what happens when you’re so divergent over something that has to happen every day? You have to take those vows and understand what you both can accept. So I went to Seth and I said, “Well, I’m okay with garbage going on once a day,” and he’ll do it when he gets home. And I’ll put it in this calendar, like a work appointment, as long as I never mentioned the word garbage ever again. It was like a miracle–it was a miracle. It was like Moses parting the sea! Literally, garbage started going out every night, and my life was changed. It just felt like a change. It felt like a game-changing, life-changing change, because…
Elana Roumell 46:35
I love this story! He understands what matters to you–
Eve Rodsky 46:38
Elana Roumell 46:38
…And in a relationship, what matters to you is important. And also what matters to your partner is important. And if we’re not very clear about that, then obviously we’re not going to be motivated to help the other person. But because now he got that context, of course, he’s going to want to do it because he doesn’t want you to relive that past for you. And I just find it to be so interesting that we often don’t take the time to actually, really get in each other’s world about things like that, mostly because we’re busy, right? We’re busy people and you’re busy, Seth’s busy–your husband–I mean, we’re both, ah, my husband and I were both business, you know, owners, so obviously we’re busy. But again, if we didn’t prioritize our house–our house, our family–with that rigor and respect, like you were talking about, that we would never talk about these things!
Eve Rodsky 47:09
Elana Roumell 47:16
So, I just find this to be such a great system to use so we have the space to communicate. We make the time to do it, and then we make it fun! We make it like a game–
Eve Rodsky 47:37
Elana Roumell 47:38
…And that’s what you’ve now proposed that, to me, is going to take our family life to a whole new level.
Eve Rodsky 47:43
And, I will say, that Jeff and I we laugh about things like you know, the other day, I needed I hold cash and bills, but I needed cash. So I just texted him, “A RAT coming your way.” Gosh, you know, but we do it. There’s the emotion is taken out, right, the emotion to take it out because not everything’s so charged anymore.
Elana Roumell 48:01
It’s great. And that really makes a big difference–how we react is huge. I do want to just share a personal experience that, when I did approached my husband about this game, I think I missed your advice in the book. And so we do a recap on these episodes, so my co- host, Steph and I are going to continue to talk about this and how we use it in our own house. And so I’m going to share my experience just for time’s sake, on our recap, but what I just want to mention is that,for the listeners: It is so important that you really do follow your steps, Eve, because I think you’ve just done so much research, and you’ve put so much thought into this so that this could be successful. Because I don’t want like a listener thinking, “Oh my god, my husband would never do this!” I mean, because I didn’t follow your steps, my husband was curious about it, and wanted to know. He seemed so open minded, and then at the end of our conversation, he’s like, “Okay, cool. This game sounds cool. I’m totally open to it, but I’m just telling you right now, I’m not doing 35% more work if that’s what that means.” And I’m like, “Whoa, what did just you say?” I couldn’t even believe it.
But it’s because of how I approached it. Now that we talked about that, and we figured it out, he was like, “Yeah, if you would have said it like that, I would have been more open to it.” So, I just want to encourage the listeners to understand that you have strategies in here that are really well thought out. And if you can really sit and read the book, or listen to the book, and really take your time, I know this can be a life-changing thing. I mean, we’re going to start this soon. We’ve actually already put the cards out, but it takes time to come up with your values for each thing, and to really delegate. We’re not going to rush anything because we really want to do this right. But, I did definitely mess up on a little bit ,and that’s okay! We learned from it, but your strategies are just great.
Eve Rodsky 49:04
Well, I love that you say that to your listeners because I think we are so used to communicating with our partners in sort of passive-aggressive, or maybe short ways. You know, like Seth used to say I talk like a nails on the chalkboard whenever I had say anything about the home. So it does take a retraining. And, look, I wish it was men who would initiate these conversations. Actually, there’s so many men reading Fair Play–more than I thought– and it’s amazing.
Elana Roumell 50:10
Oh, that’s great!
Eve Rodsky 50:11
So there will be men, but I am asking women. And so, some of my you know, my mother’s colleagues are very, you know, left-wing feminist friends who I love. They’ll say, “Well, why aren’t men initiating these conversations?” And I say, “Well, we can wait another hundred years for that. Or, I can quote my favorite feminist Nora Ephron: ‘You can be the victim of your own life or your heroine.’ ” So there’s nothing wrong with taking agency in your life and having to approach the topic, because it’s not like I’m asking women to do the solution. It’s just, yes, a lot of women will be the ones approaching this subject. But again, it’s we’re saying do more of less. Let’s be efficient. And that’s why if you skip the value step of building your deck together, based on what you both value, and what needs to get done for your family, it fails. It just becomes another list.
Elana Roumell 50:57
Yeah, I can’t really see that.
Eve Rodsky 50:58
That’s the step. That’s the key. They key is that building your deck together step, and then the weekly practice of a check in. Those are the two miracle solutions that are not rocket science, that are easy to do. But those are the keys to the system.
Elana Roumell 51:12
Great. I love it. Well, one of the things I found when I was reading the book–I thought you were pretty motivated, because you wanted more of what you call “unicorns.”
But, yes, can you explain that? Because I know we only have five minutes, so we’ll have to do it a little bit, you know, quickly, and it’s fine. Again, just, this is so great. I just want people to read it. But tell us a little bit about unicorn space because I also value that incredibly in any relationship.
Eve Rodsky 51:21
Yes. So I wish this this could have just been organizational management book because that’s my expertise. But this became a book about identity, and what happens in midlife to women. When I had woman after woman saying to me, “I’m ‘hashtag Brady’s mom.'” You have three Ivy League degrees. You are an amazing dental hygienist. Like what do you mean, you’re just Brady’s mom? It was a very pervasive feeling of identity loss after children that kept coming up and up regardless of socioeconomic status, regardless of ethnicity, even regardless of whether it’s hetero, or same sex couples, really.
And so, what was happening was that this idea of finding your passion and purpose, living as your authentic self, having permission to be interested in your own life as a woman is not something society shows us, right? I always say to my daughter, who’s three, she loves Beauty and the Beast and she loves Little Mermaid–and they always talk about “happily ever after.” But what’s the “after”? Why do we not see women, even in US Weekly, or Star Magazine after their baby shower? What happens to us? Why do we become invisible? And so it’s the idea of reclaiming what makes us, us–and how do we share that with the world?
For you, it’s probably your business or your podcast–you’re lucky. I mean, I’m not, I don’t know for sure. But I think it’s a part of what you do your practice and sharing that with the world probably is your unicorn space. For me, it’s now writing this book. But it’s this idea that especially after kids, right? This very crazy science happened where men start taking more and more leisure time. And women don’t. And so it just becomes very lopsided and what women have time to be able to do and the idea of spending two hours on unpaid work for yourself? For me, the idea of reading gender division of labor books. When I put my kids in childcare, it felt subversive. It felt terrible, actually! I had tons and tons of guilt and shame over it, because I wasn’t being paid for this time. So, of course, I should be spending with my kids.
And that guilt and shame is ultimately something that stops women from pursuing an interesting life–what makes them interested in their own lives–and that’s just unfair. But the idea of passion and purpose, Elana, on top of domestic work without that changing is just shaming women. It’s just crass to me. So that’s why I call the unicorn space because it’s like a unicorn. This idea of creative, fulfilling space for women to fulfill our passion and purpose doesn’t exist. It doesn’t exist–just like a unicorn–unless we reclaim it through domestic rebalance.
Elana Roumell 54:00
I love that!
Eve Rodsky 54:00
Because otherwise, I’m not going to be reclaiming myself when I’m stabbing myself in the vagina with a pen, barely trying to keep my life together with two kids under the age of five.
Elana Roumell 54:10
Well, and you value it so much that it is part of the card deck. And that’s what I think is just such a brilliant part of it because it’s very complete. And that it’s for both–the man and the woman–are both partners, because that is so incredibly important. And, that we both value that and honor that to ensure that both of us have that time to do it. And then, I mean, the partnership thrives because of it. I mean, you’re much more attractive when you’re in your unicorn space. It’s just the way it is. And I love that you’ve really done some of the research to see how unfortunate it is that people do lose their identity, oftentimes. And often it is because we are just working so hard on all this invisible work, that it just kind of eats away all of our time.
But once we can get clear that all time is of equal value, and we just help to delegate what the tasks are, you could really step into that unicorn space. And because you’re the cause in the matter of that; you’re creating that for yourself. And I just think, again, that consciousness makes it so that it happens.
Eve Rodsky 55:08
Elana Roumell 55:08
I think that’s very powerful– you get to design that. Awesome, awesome! Okay, I could talk to you easily for another hour!
Eve Rodsky 55:14
Elana Roumell 55:14
So, I cannot, but I do want you to at least leave our listeners, to let them know where they can find out more about it. Where can they get the book? I’m definitely gonna link it in the show notes. But, what else are you doing? You said you’re around the country speaking, or what’s going on? Where can they learn more about this?
Eve Rodsky 55:29
Yes, you can find me online at fairplaylife.com or everodsky.com. The book is everywhere. books are sold–Amazon, Barnes and Noble, independent bookstores. And you can download the cards along with the book at fairplaylife.com. They’re available for free download. And so, I’m just really excited to share and have everybody on this call be cultural warriors. I think I will just share one last text I just recently received from my friend’s husband who’s a management consultant, and he travels all the time for work. And I’ll read it to you. It says, “Read the first 100 pages of Eve’s book. Wish I had read it 10 years earlier, I would have been a better partner to you. I’m sorry.”
Oh, my gosh, I have the chills. Oh!
I know, I know.
Elana Roumell 56:13
Oh, that is so, so special!
Eve Rodsky 56:14
That’s why started doing this work. It is pre-consciousness, the consciousness, and solutions. And I know that it works. I’ve seen it work now for thousands of people. And the more we get to do this together–we’re not just doing this for ourselves. We’re doing this for the next generation, which is ironic because my son just walked in. What do you think of Fair Play?
Eve’s son 56:36
Eve Rodsky 56:38
Elana Roumell 56:38
Oh, I love that.
Eve’s son 56:40
I gotta play more. And it’s kind of changing the history of our world.
Elana Roumell 56:49
I love it! Well, what a great way to end. Eve, thank you so much for your time.
Eve Rodsky 56:49
I love you.
Oh, yes, thank you as well!
Elana Roumell 56:53
I know I got so much from it. I hope our listeners did too. Have a great day!
Eve Rodsky 56:57
Have a great day! Thank you.
Elana Roumell 56:57
I hope you enjoyed today’s episode as much as I did, interviewing Eve. Don’t forget that Steph and I do recaps of all of our episodes. So I can’t wait to talk more about these concepts, and see what Steph has to say as well, and share some of our experiences. We want to thank our partner Butcher Box for offering our listeners a great deal. Just as reminder for new customers: You can get two grass-fed filet mignon steaks, plus two pounds of wild-caught Alaskan salmon, and an additional $20 off your first box. Visit butcherbox.com/wholemomas to get this great deal. The offer ends February 16, so don’t miss it.
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- The “she-fault” phenomenon
- Identifying all the “invisible” to-dos that a woman takes on and the impact to our health
- Ways to systemize household tasks to optimize efficiency and “fair play” between partners
- How to communicate with your partner to dial down the crazy and create more balance
- Shifts to start valuing both partners’ time as equal
- How a card game can change the way you run your household and create more time for what you love
- Read more about Fair Play on their website
- Order Fair Play on Amazon
- Learn more about Whole Mamas Pregnancy Program
- Subscribe to our Weekly Pregnancy Emails
- Take the free mini course at Dr. Elana’s Med School For Moms
- Schedule an appointment with Dr. Elana
- Follow Steph and Elana on Instagram
- Whole Mamas Podcast Archive
This episode's guest
Eve Rodsky is working to change society one marriage at a time with a new 21st century solution to an age-old problem: women shouldering the brunt of childrearing and domestic life responsibilities regardless of whether they work outside the home.
In her New York Times bestselling book Fair Play: A Game-Changing Solution for When You Have Too Much to Do (and More Life to Live), she uses her Harvard Law School training and years of organizational management experience to create a gamified life-management system to help couples rebalance all of the work it takes to run a home and allow them to reimagine their relationship, time and purpose.
Eve Rodsky received her B.A. in economics and anthropology from the University of Michigan, and her J.D. from Harvard Law School. After working in foundation management at J.P. Morgan, she founded the Philanthropy Advisory Group to advise high-net worth families and charitable foundations on best practices for harmonious operations, governance and disposition of funds. In her work with hundreds of families over a decade, she realized that her expertise in family mediation, strategy, and organizational management could be applied to a problem closer to home – a system for couples seeking balance, efficiency, and peace in their home. Rodsky was born and raised by a single mom in New York City and now lives in Los Angeles with her husband Seth and their three children.